Charlie Liu

Hello, everyone. I'm Charlie Liu. Welcome back to the MCC show, Making Cents with Charlie. We have a unique guest today. He's a real jack of all trades. I describe him as bilingual in the world of finance and tech. He began his career in accounting and programming and then moved to consulting. Since then, he's navigated his industry as a vendor, a consultant, and a fractional CFO. He's also an architect of financial systems and a self-claimed engineer of all things DIY. He's a dedicated multi-sport athlete. Mark, you may be the most fit non-professional athlete I'll ever know. Squash, running, cycling, competitive disc golf. He is the head of our international team at MCC, straight out of South Africa. Mark, it is great to have you here. You're our first guest outside of North America. We're going to start with some rapid-fire questions to get the energy up, and then have our typical talk afterwards.

Mark

Thank you, Charlie. Good to be here.

Charlie Liu

Beer or wine?

Mark

Wine, absolutely. My house is a wine cellar. That is why I bought the house.

Charlie Liu

FP&A project or DIY project?

Mark

My own DIY project, and someone else's FP&A project. Yes, between those two.

Charlie Liu

What is your coffee ritual? I know you are a coffee snob.

Mark

I make my own water. I grind my beans. I have a manual lever machine preheating on the stove. Two different beans, one for me, one for my wife. I make hers first, then pull my own manual shots. Cortado is generally my style. The smell of coffee in the morning is wonderful. It actually got me married, I'm sure. The first things my wife noticed when she came to my apartment were sparkling water, wine, and coffee. She thought, okay, this is the guy. The ritual is that I control every variable. I maximize everything. You have to move like a train. You can't lose heat in the system. It is honestly one of the most fun things I do.

Charlie Liu

I cannot wait to visit and have one of your coffees. Do you have a particular bean you are obsessed with?

Mark

There is a region in Ethiopia called Yirgacheffe. It is the opposite of old-school coffee. It is bright, acidic rather than bitter, floral and fruity. I often get it wrong, including this morning.

Charlie Liu

Between all the sports you do, squash, cycling, disc golf, what is your number one?

Mark

Disc golf. Watching something fly is just fun.

Charlie Liu

I know you are competing later this year as well.

Mark

Yes. I am number two in South Africa right now. I was number one, but the person I beat has beaten me back.

Charlie Liu

How long were you number one?

Mark

A solid year.

Charlie Liu

Are you more athletic now versus when you were in your twenties?

Mark

No. I used to dedicate twelve to fourteen hours of solid training every week, training like a professional for no monetary reward, just for the love of it. My body eventually told me it was time to stop and become a normal human, which I have promptly ignored. But that period was really good fun. I wish everyone could try it for a month, just to see what it feels like on the other side of all the work to start.

Charlie Liu

I often hear athletes say that as they get a bit older, the physical peak might fade, but there is a certain physical intelligence, a more mature way of navigating the sport. Did you feel any of that?

Mark

That is exactly where disc golf speaks to me. I was a squash player. COVID was the reason I stopped because it is two people in a shared space. Disc golf has a skill and technique element that is very appealing. Mountain biking attracted me for the same reason. For me, it is the skill component that is the most exciting. Anyone can practice as much as they want, but there is a talent element at the cutting edge of competition, and that is where the joy lives.

Charlie Liu

Final rapid-fire question. What is the most majestic animal in South Africa for you?

Mark

I have a hot take. The kudu. It is a buck antelope, taller than a grown man standing up. The males can be enormous and they are some of the most beautiful creatures. I had a vivid memory on a game drive vehicle. This animal appeared right next to me. We made full eye contact and it decided I was not a threat. Google the kudu with the word majestic and just look at that animal. They are fantastic. They are also delicious.

Charlie Liu

Most folks listening have never been to South Africa. You have traveled through North America and Europe. How would you describe South Africa to someone on the other side of the pond?

Mark

We are better than the world in so many ways and worse in others. It is the friendliest place you will ever visit. No matter who you are, if you are walking in the same direction as someone, you can start a conversation. It is warm and hospitable. We are not always great at the basics like keeping the lights on. Water is not always there when you open a tap. My biggest gripe is the education system. The standard has been lowered. Pass rates for certain core subjects are in the thirty percent range. The focus is on getting people through rather than with something of value. But when you look past all of that, this is one of the most beautiful countries in the world and the people are amazing. We are a proper rainbow nation. We have everything we could ever want. We are just not always using it the best.

Charlie Liu

The socioeconomic gap in South Africa is quite high. My guess is that the biggest driver is the education system. If you did not select the right parents, it is very hard to get a decent education. What is the education system like for a regular person who does not have those extra opportunities?

Mark

Too many people in a class. A dumbing down of the curriculum. Removal of higher math and science options. It limits people's choices. My parents had to pay extra so that my schooling was recognized by any international university. But the people who did not have that leg up and still dragged themselves through to world-class competence, they are even more impressive. When they get there, they are even more worth hiring.

Charlie Liu

You started in accounting, then programming, then consulting. What were some of the highlights of your career, and what guidance would you give yourself going back ten years?

Mark

I studied accounting because I could not think of anything else to do and it seemed the most general. I did my articles at a small firm, which let me try building my own CPM tool early on, so I immediately got out of pure accounting. I did consulting, a lot of Power BI and other programming, and found the tool we use now. My advice to myself would honestly be not to study accounting. The amount I use from that degree compared to what I taught myself about computers, math, and programming is not close. I would probably suggest a BSc in something math and computer related, because that is where the world is going.

Charlie Liu

Is the biggest strength purely technical, or are there other aspects like managing interpersonal relationships or understanding the business?

Mark

There is a depth of thought and empathy needed to put yourself in everyone's shoes. You can type anything into AI, but what you type matters a lot. In normal day-to-day life, you need to understand why you are doing what you are doing. How does this help someone? How can I help them more? And that means asking why. Why do you want this? What problem does this solve? Why is that problem so big? Why is it your problem?

Charlie Liu

What has helped you in your career to get better at understanding the other side and asking why?

Mark

I spent a long time as a sole consultant and sole proprietor. If the client did not like me, that was a problem for my ability to continue eating. You learn fast. You understand the consequences of a soft word where you meant to be firm. You are the one at two in the morning fixing what a vague conversation created. That is when you realize you need to ask more questions, tell people why, give detailed explanations. It is one thing to use logic. It is another to get someone to genuinely buy in. That took the longest to learn.

Charlie Liu

A lot of folks in our space do not realize we are consultants. Our job is to consult. Much of the industry just takes current client processes and moves them to new technologies, which is a disastrous combination.

Mark

You have to push back, explain, and re-engineer the whole process, not just set up new systems. Otherwise you have taken old problems and misunderstandings into a foreign environment. If you do not explain the why in a way people can understand, there is pain later.

Charlie Liu

I got a piece of advice from a communications coach in Australia. He said you do not get paid for your skills, you get paid for your perceived skills. He had a quote I really love: communication is the tide that lifts all. All your skills are like little boats, but the tide is your ability to communicate. That is what makes the difference between a good consultant and an average one.

Mark

I started out being way too clever. I could solve the problem but never explained it well enough. A mentor helped me understand that whilst this is brilliant, no one else knows what it is. I realized fairly quickly that I am not going to get paid for brilliance that is not explained and usable. Keep it simple and build with the client. That was the hardest lesson. It took the longest.

Charlie Liu

Which do you think is harder to teach: communication and soft skills, or the technical depth?

Mark

My answer is there is a middle skill: are you willing to probe, question, and look for the answer even internally? If you are technically strong because you ask those questions, I can teach you the soft skills. If you are great at soft skills and ask probing questions, I can teach you the technology. But if you do not have that middle piece, consulting is not for you. We have to be innately curious. I do not care for problems I already know how to solve. I care for novel problems.

Charlie Liu

I recently came to the realization that there are two muscles that benefit you in almost every aspect of life: empathy and curiosity. If you combine those two, there is so much you can do. Do you think curiosity can be taught and strengthened, or are you born with it?

Mark

A bit of both. You can definitely flex and strengthen that muscle. You need guidance on how to do it. You can be curious about the wrong things and lose trust. All of that can be trained. But for some of us, life is easy when you are born this way and find a career that lets you express yourself naturally. Some of the people we are hiring left successful careers in other industries because they said it was too boring. They need variety. They need problems. I tell them, come to me. I have problems that will keep you engaged for a good ten years.

Charlie Liu

Talking about hiring, I know we are starting something pretty cool. Share that with the audience.

Mark

I am putting my money where my mouth is and asking the company to do the same. South Africa has the smart people. Those bright kids fighting their way through university, struggling to achieve things others consider normal. We are taking on eight or nine of them starting next week. The first ones we said yes to before we even finished the list were all the curious ones. The ones who said, can I ask you a question? Can I ask another one? They are all super bright, super talented people. I realized that my instinct to look internationally was immature. Let me work with the people I know. Let me expose the Canadians here to what South Africans can do. We can take people from a difficult situation and change the entire trajectory of their lives and their earning potential. It is a win for everyone involved.

Charlie Liu

The unemployment rate in South Africa is near sixty percent for youth. For anyone listening, there is an opportunity here that benefits everyone in the equation. This is your first time building an office and coaching a group like this. What makes you most excited and what makes you most anxious?

Mark

Truthfully, I am bored of solving people's FP&A problems. But teaching people how to solve other people's FP&A problems is very rewarding. The better they do, the better it reflects on me. The better I teach them, the better their careers go. It is a people problem, which is way more rewarding because your reward is seeing other people succeed. The anxiety is figuring out how to constantly empathize with people who have not had fifteen years in finance, who have not sat at boardroom tables since their early twenties. How do I get them to feel confident, build their skills, and flex the muscles to get good at this job?

Charlie Liu

It sounds like there is a new calling in your life, which is mentoring others. I really believe from my own career that one of the biggest drivers for me was finding mentees. It holds you accountable. You have to practice what you preach. How are you thinking about the onboarding and educational process? More like a school setting or a typical company ramp?

Mark

We have a leg up in that they are coming from a company that has been educating them in business and work life. They already operate in a classroom environment. We will continue that. Slow and steady for the first three or four months, building a foundation. Then a lot of shadowing. Explain to me why. Do not just do. Tell me why you are doing it. Go practice offline and come back to me with the questions.

Charlie Liu

We talked about AI earlier. Things are very different now compared to six months ago. Do you plan to work AI into how you coach and ramp this new generation?

Mark

I am still a bit of an AI skeptic when it comes to AI creating value and content. But one thing it is undeniably brilliant at is marking homework. You can ask it to critique a template, explain why an approach is inefficient, rewrite an email in a friendlier but firmer tone. For me, looking at this as a teacher and mentor, this is a teaching aid that does not sleep. It is available any time. The subscription fee is quite reasonable.

Charlie Liu

Too many of us use AI just to simplify individual tasks. The biggest ROI I have gotten from it is using it to critique my work, my decisions, the strategies I think through. It becomes almost an individual coach for yourself. You are a great coach and mentor, but you will not have the bandwidth to give each of eight or nine people the tailored guidance that AI can.

Mark

There is a feature AI does that most people do not use. Most of us are good at solving a problem, and once we have solved it, we run out of energy for it. With AI, you can say: I need to solve this a different way. I am not allowed to use the existing solution. Tell me why and how I could solve it differently. As a consultant, that is a muscle that usually takes a long time to build. Now you can simulate that with AI and strengthen it deliberately.

Charlie Liu

That simulation is quite critical. Some of our sales people start their day by cold calling their AI and telling it to be as rude and cold as possible, so they start with the worst potential prospect every day. It gives consultants a trial by fire experience, but it is not real. It is a supported and protected environment. Mark, this has been a lot of fun. Our ask is always a two-cent piece of advice. What is yours for the audience?

Mark

Very simple. Keep asking why. Ask why, and then ask why again.

Charlie Liu

That should drive everything we do. We should be intentional about the reasons behind what we do. Thank you so much, Mark. Thank you to everyone attending and to all the listeners. Hope to have you back soon and to see you in person.

Mark

Thank you, Charlie. Cannot wait to see you in person.